Narrator:
Hey BK with Ofer Cohen.
Jonathan Schnapp:
It was rough times, you know, it definitely was scary and nobody was dying to throw money at the world's first shuffleboard nightclub next to a polluted canal run by a web developer and a voiceover actress where you're going to drive food trucks into the building.
Ofer Cohen:
The name The Royal Palms evokes images of vacation, Florida and retired people, but the shuffleboard club is actually a popular destination for young Brooklynites in the Gowanus neighborhood in Brooklyn. The Gowanus sits in between two of the most established neighborhoods in Brownstone Brooklyn: Park Slope and Carroll Gardens. The area is named after a canal that runs through the middle of the neighborhood and that has been polluted for over a hundred years. The city and the local councilmen had been working on a framework to rezone the area into a vibrant mixed use community with a strong focus on affordability and sustainability. In this episode, I talk to Jonathan Schnapp who open the Royal Palms Shuffleboard club in 2014 with his partner Ashley Albert, they turned to a developer friend and a known risk taker in Brooklyn, David Belt, who had created Brooklyn's innovative New Lab and were encouraged to pursue what was by all accounts, a crazy idea. Jonathan Schnapp, Thank you for being here today.
Jonathan Schnapp:
My pleasure.
Ofer Cohen:
So walking distance from here, there's the Royal Palms Shuffleboard club. Forget, Gowanus and Brooklyn and all that stuff. Like the idea of shuffleboard?
Jonathan Schnapp:
Yeah, I used to play with my grandparents in Florida when I was a kid, and hadn't played in a lot of years and then went down on a trip to Florida with my partner. And we were going to Miami to visit her family and then I did some research and found the world's largest shuffleboard club was in St Pete. And I said, Hey, Hey Ashley, is St Pete anywhere close to Miami? And she said, no, that's, that's the other side of the state. And I said, all right, well we should rent a rented car and drive through alligator alley and visit this a hundred year old shuffleboard club. And we did just that and got there and they were having a party like they do every Friday night. And it was young people and old people and hipsters and nerds and weirdos and cool kids and everybody out under the stars playing shuffleboard in this incredible old shuffleboard club. And just had this sort of moment where we're like, this would be the funnest thing, and ever since that night in St Pete, it's kind of been, this is what we wanted to do. Got back to Brooklyn and couldn't get it out of our heads and, and really wanted to find a way to do this. And honestly, one of the first people I ever talked to about it was, was our friend Dave Belt and I came to his office cause Dave Belt does incredible, ridiculous fucking things, you know, and is afraid of nothing, you know. And I was like, this is what I want to. And he was like, I think it's great. You should do it. And I was like, really? Nobody, nobody else has said, I think this is great. You should do it, you know? And started me off on a path and I met a bunch of people.
Ofer Cohen:
And what did you do before?
Jonathan Schnapp:
I was a web developer and a teacher at NYU and a DJ and that made pinatas. So I was a New Yorker, you know, just somebody who had a pretty successful career in sort of digital but it was kind of over it and was looking for the next thing. And this felt true to me in a way, because it was something from my childhood and because it reminded me of being a kid on vacation and I thought that it had legs in a way, like the triangles and the circles and the numbers. There's something really beautiful about the aesthetic of the game. There's something beautiful about the way that you play with somebody else and the interaction of the game. It's not bowling. Like, hold on, I'm going to go bowling. You roll your two balls and then you sit down and they label, you know what I mean? There's almost a flirtiness to it of I'm gonna knock you out. You know, and it's a conversation and the conversations that you have when you're waiting for your partners to shoot you sit down on a bench and, you have a conversation with, with somebody, and those, those moments are special and they're not digital moments. They're so analog. That score is kept on the chalkboard and it always has been, you know, and, it doesn't feel like that's changing anytime soon. So yeah, it's been the project of my life.
Ofer Cohen:
Let's go back to that moment so that, you know, you can get that idea out of your head. It feels like this is what you have to do. Then what?
Jonathan Schnapp:
Yeah, it's a good question then a long, hard sometimes very painful struggle coming from a place where I had no experience in commercial real estate, construction, hospitality or fundraising, and trying to get from that to opening up a 17,000 square foot brick and mortar thing. So it was a lot of meeting people, a lot of coffees, a lot of talking, raising, , my own awareness, and also raising funds and trying to find a way to get this thing open. And, you know, we found a space probably before we were ready to in Gowanus.
Ofer Cohen:
So when you signed the lease on the current space, you didn't have the money.
Jonathan Schnapp:
We didn't have a dime raised. We had our own life savings, which was, but you know you know, thankfully in pretty good shape. You know, we were able to like throw down enough money to secure this space. It was a three months security and he gave us three months free rent and that, that was in the neighborhood of, you know, $60,000 or something like that, and then started bleeding cash and you know, it was rough times, you know, it definitely was scary, and nobody was dying to throw money at the world's first shuffleboard nightclub next to a polluted canal run by a web developer and a voice over actress where you're going to drive food trucks into the building. It just sounded ridiculous, you know, and I look back at all of the people who, you know, said, no thank you to the pitch and, I think they were probably right despite the fact that this thing went as well as it did, and everybody's gotten paid and everything has been fantastic. I don't blame anybody for being like, yeah, no, not for me.
Ofer Cohen:
Do you think it was just an incredible idea the right time?
Jonathan Schnapp:
I think we got lucky in a lot of ways, you know, and we got into a great location that was, that I recognized we were going to be able to pull from all of these incredible communities. Carrol Gardens and Cobble Hill and Boerum Hill.
Ofer Cohen:
Was the Gowanus strategic choice for that reason. Or just that's because that's where it was cheap. I mean, you can also find a space, right?
Jonathan Schnapp:
Yeah, we were, we were looking for 15 to 20,000 square feet and here was something at, you know, $13 a foot that had air conditioning units already on the roof. So it wouldn't have to do that part of it. And the court's laid out right in the whole thing kind of came together you know, I don't know if it was an incredible idea. We put ourselves in like a sink or swim situation because we were too stupid not to realize that that's what we were doing, you know, and kind of left ourselves no way out. And I think there was definitely a good few times in that year and a half of trying to find the money in particular, where I definitely would have quit, you know, if we would've had a choice, but there wasn't much of a choice, you know, and that's the way, but it was so we just kept swimming.
Ofer Cohen:
And just give us a sense for, for those of us that were not here, in the Gowanus back then, not that long ago, but still, you know, tremendous amount has happened in the area and it's about to happen in the area. What was open already in that quarter?
Jonathan Schnapp:
It was everything from old-school places like Two Tom's, to a terrarium shop and Brooklyn Boulders was there and Little Fields was open and the Dino barbecue was under construction and, the Whole Foods was going to be coming also. So everybody knew that that was gonna happen , you know, the Gowanus is a really, really special place and, and I think that polluted canal has given people an opportunity to do some incredible things, having access to this audience of people in this city, is so incredible. And, you know, I don't think it would be true if it wasn't for that polluted canal keeping development out of that area for as long as it did.
Ofer Cohen:
I mean there was a rezoning that was supposed to get approved about 11 years ago and then when it, became a super fund yeah. That was on hold for about a decade.
Jonathan Schnapp:
And people were able to make their dreams come true and build a restaurant or, you know, make an archery studio or do a shuffleboard club, you know, and, and ideas that nobody believed in there was an opportunity to do, you know, to take a chance and, and do those ideas in a inexpensive and affordable enough way that there was a chance to success.
Ofer Cohen:
Why did you pick Brooklyn?
Jonathan Schnapp:
Well, number one, I guess a bunch of different reasons, number one, there was no way this project could happen in Manhattan at the prices that they were looking at. Listen, we're wasting thousands of square feet of New York city real estate. It is a ridiculous thing to do. You can't even walk on the courts, you know what I mean? So like, just like huge amounts of space that like, are not wasted. But, you know what I'm saying? You know, so, you know, we were looking for something, very inexpensive to try to make this thing work. Again. If I wanted to, be with people like myself, I could just stay the fuck home, you know what I mean? And I don't think that socializing or nightlife, if you want to call it that or, or, you know, hospitality, can be great without diversity and that diversity, can only be attained through value. And if we're paying $60 a foot for 15,000 square feet, we're going to be charging $9 for a beer and you're going to squeeze the amount of people who could come to your place. Your business might be successful, but it's not the business that we want to run. You know, we really wanted to make a place that we would want to go to. And part of that says, come with three friends, rent a court for $40 bucks everybody kicks in, $10, have a couple of $5 beers and some tacos from the food truck and you've had a really nice night for $25 - $30, you know, and that's something you can do over and over and over again and make a part of your life as opposed to an experience where you drop $150 and you come back a year and a half later, you know? , and in order to do the project that we wanted to do and do it the way that we wanted to do, and have it be the place that we wanted it to be. It had to be less expensive than that it had to be so.
Ofer Cohen:
And the demographic that you're describing is here.
Jonathan Schnapp:
Yeah, exactly. You know, I think when I think about it, the way that I put it, and what's so special about the Brooklyn neighborhoods that we're talking about and the Brooklyn neighborhood that surrounds Gowanus. And, you know, even out from that is that quite bluntly, it's people with some money to spend who aren't fucking dicks about it, you know? And, that's so rare in the world, honestly, that doesn't exist, you know? And that's what's so special about Brooklyn. They're choosing a Brooklyn life. They want to know their neighbors, they want community. They want to be with each other. And that's extraordinary, you know? And, and as we're looking to grow now, very, very slowly but growing, we opened a second location in Chicago and like the Bucktown Wicker park, Logan square, Humboldt sort of area. And we, we were looking for that thing and found it there. This hospitality life is really hard and it's really quite a grind. You're everybody's bitch. You know what I mean? Like when I was a web developer, I had like 10 clients, you know, I have thousands of clients a week right now. You know what I mean? And, I can't imagine how hard it would be if you didn't love the people that were coming to your place.
Ofer Cohen:
And if you think about sort of like the greater Brownstone Brooklyn area, it's not like there is really nightlife outside of restaurants and some bars on a Saturday night. I mean, I think that the shuffleboard was the first time I was like, wow, there's actually a demographic in these neighborhoods that want to party and hang.
Jonathan Schnapp:
Yeah. I think that Gowanus kind of became this special place in that way. Also where people would do the Gowanus experience of going to Dinosaur barbecue, then going to play some shuffleboard and then having some ice cream at Ample Hills, you know, and that was like your Gowanus experience, you know, and somehow, we lucked into that. I think a lot of the people that are there on Saturday night probably aren't from our immediate neighborhood. I think they're kind of coming from everywhere. I think year one, it was very much a Brooklyn thing. Year two it was a New York city thing and year three it kind of popped to this Tristate area thing, which I don't think we were expecting, you know, we really wanted to put this where people where people live and let the corporate follow that. And now with this whole eater-tainment industry popping up that's supposed to somehow save the future of retail, you know what I mean? Whatever, whatever it is that the thing is. Obviously we didn't intend to be that, but we've been caught. We've caught up in that. But, I think that the majority of that world is on the other side of it from us where they're saying, Hey, let's, let's have these corporate parties be our bread and butter. Let's put this thing in midtown, get that dough, and make some money. And it's, it's a great formula for them. It's just not what we do. You know what we want. And the only way that we know how to do it is let's create a vibe first. Let's make this a place for our neighborhood first. Let's build our leagues first. So in Chicago and in New York, we've got about 800 people in each location that play in the shuffleboard leagues every week. And that's at the heart of who we are and sets the tone for the entire week. And all those people, anytime they come in, if you're in the league, you play for free anytime you want to come in, you know, those are our regulars and they love the place and they love the staff and they tip well and they don't you know, treat the place like shit. You know, and, and having those people around is what makes the place feel special.
Ofer Cohen:
It sounds to me that you, you're, you're sort of like torn between this, true desire to stay authentic and local and the success that it's the lack of better words, gentrification.
Jonathan Schnapp:
I mean it's somewhat true. I mean, listen, if we can't believe that, like the bro that comes to Gowanus from Kips Bay, you know what I mean? If we can't believe that we can make that person better when they're in our place than they would be somewhere else. By showing them how we treat each other, showing them how we treat our guests, showing them how we do things. If we can't make that person be the guests that we want them to be, then we're not good at our jobs. You know what I mean?
Ofer Cohen:
That's a lot of responsibility.
Jonathan Schnapp:
It's not, it's a goal. You know what I mean? But like, we have to believe that everybody who comes into the Royal Palms can be charmed and can be convinced and can have a sense of wonder. They walk into our place, they're like, look at this. This is incredible. And we teach them this game and get into the game, and that's a lot of responsibility. It can be a lofty challenge some days, but that's, if we're not doing that, if we're not able to do that, then we're not good at our thing.
Ofer Cohen:
You know, Brooklyn has gone through tremendous amount of development transformation, most of which is great. The Gowanus going through a rezoning. My sense is that a similar wave of change is going to come to Gowanus as it came to other neighborhoods in Brooklyn. So where do you see yourself like 10 years from now to be in the neighborhood?
Jonathan Schnapp:
Listen, we're sitting in a real estate office, you know, I've listened to a bunch of Hey BK podcasts, and I actually asked Dave Belt, I was like, you know, I'm feeling pretty fucking cynical about development in particularly the development of the Gowanus. Should I I sugar coat this for over or should I let loose? And Dave Belt, in Dave Belt fashioned, he was like, let loose, you know? Yeah. I was like, okay, great, fantastic. So you know, in 10 years the shuffleboard club probably won't be there anymore. Our building just got sold, to some relatively good folks. They're looking to create something, you know, and I think in a perfect world, they would knock down our building right now and start building their fucking condos. You know, the smartest people in the world with the most money in the world realize that this is the best bet that they can make.
Ofer Cohen:
Just as a correction. These are going to be rental apartments, but, okay,
Jonathan Schnapp:
Whatever the version of this is, the, the people with the most money who are making the safest bet cause these are all risk rewards things. And the group that bought our building said, Hey, we'll give you X much money just to move this somewhere else. You know? And I said, yeah, no, I'm not going to do that. You know, we've got a lease and , we're going to be holding on and cause I honestly don't know why this shuffleboard club works, you know? And there's something about those walls and that space and that moment in that place that somehow is special. And I have not that much confidence that if you take that thing and move it to, you know, one block away, you know, that it's the same thing and that it's that sort of magic.
Ofer Cohen:
Well it's not going to be the same. But it could still be good.
Jonathan Schanpp:
It could still be good or could not. People could go there and be like, yeah, it doesn't feel like it did before. You know? And that's something that real estate people people can relate to. Is that like whatever it is, there's risk. I mean.
Ofer Cohen:
I know you opened in Chicago that has some of the same characteristics you found in the Gowanus are essentially looking for other towns or places in the world that have the same conditions that you found in the Gowanus to go on a seven, eight years ago?
Jonathan Schnapp:
Yeah. To some degree. Yeah. I think the fact is that we don't, we don't need to do any more of it. Like I'm not, you know, I'm a 47 year old Jewish man with very simple plan. Like, this jumpsuit costs me, you know, $20 on. But not spending on clothes is the point. I don't have any kids. The Brooklyn project alone makes more money than I really needed to. I'm not a rich guy, you know what I mean? But I can buy sushi and a cab, which is all any of us are really ever looking for, you know, to some degree.
Ofer Cohen:
We have one last question, , that I typically ask. It's tell me something and nobody else, nobody knows about you.
Jonathan Schnapp:
Ah, nobody knows. Okay, let's see. The thing that people don't know, maybe they could guess, but I think that I was a real strange kid, you know, I grew up outside of the city and in Mamaroneck New York. Strange enough that I wound up at Oberlin college. If you know what that means in some sort of way, you know, a school of weirdos and freaks and wonderful individuals that are artistic and open-minded and bizarre, and always felt that, in some sort of way I was outside of things and I was an outsider in the world. And I think that, the true gratification of this project, of the Royal Palms, was that this larger audience, and thinks what I think is fun, is fun. And that has really changed the way I think about myself in the world. And maybe I wasn't such an outsider the whole time, you know, and maybe I was actually part of this and just didn't know that I was. And I think that change in myself, has been really the most gratifying thing of the project as opposed to any money that we've made or any, you know, success that we've had. I think that's, that's been really the most rewarding part of it is to sort of the change in the way that I see myself because of the way the world has responded to this thing.
Ofer Cohen:
That's amazing. Very cool. Thank you, Jonathan.
Jonathan Schnapp:
Thank you for taking time with me. I hope this has been you know, something, something that people enjoy.